P.S I re-read my post and it sound bitter, but I don't know how else to word it, no offense if it was bitter sounding.
Offense? Dont worry. I've seen nothing like that.
But I'm wondering how capcom could realize an A.I. feature. I mean, I'm sure many here already noticed the "ghost bots", or whatever you call this, during online campaign (soldiers and akrids). You will clearly see this if one your buddies actually aims for, well, nothing than just empty space, but right behind the corner a bot dies trough David Copperfields hand :D . The truth behind this is that the bots on Player 2s screen are already attacking but for player 1 they're still behind the corner.
The problem never appears for bosses or non moving targets like turrets BUT, and this is getting really funny sometimes, the turrets can aim for different players on each screen xD It's hilarious. Great example for this is Episode 3 - 3. The big black turrets. Player 1 says "heh, the cannon is shooting at you" and player 2 says "no, they're aiming for you". Player 1 can clearly see how the rocket hits player 2 but he takes no damage because on his screen the cannons tries to kill player 1. It's just awesome. In these situations, if both turrets on both screens aiming for different targets NO ONE takes damage but the cannon, of course, will.
And to be truth: that should never happen in a coop game. But since LP1 I know that Capcom could really need an experienced team for netcoding (a netcode also includes synchronizing A.I. via network and that's a hard job for and you need really experienced people for it) and I dont know how far Capcom can go now for LP2. I doubt that a patch can change something which is located so deep in the game. Improving some parameters of weapons is one thing and pretty easy. Completety changing a netcode of game is a another and long story.
Why I'm telling this: because the A.I. for campaign is not different from the A.I. in training mode (except for some uber-aiming and grenade spaming, lol). And now imagine what kind of a mess a room filled with more than 4 players and bots would be. The game would handle each bot for each player totally different when it comes to movement and certain actions like firing, grenading and more.
Sure, Capcom could simply add the bots for multiplayer. But this causes 100% problems in the current state of the game.
P.S I re-read my post and it sound bitter, but I don't know how else to word it, no offense if it was bitter sounding.
Offense? Dont worry. I've seen nothing like that.
But I'm wondering how capcom could realize an A.I. feature. I mean, I'm sure many here already noticed the "ghost bots", or whatever you call this, during online campaign (soldiers and akrids). You will clearly see this if one your buddies actually aims for, well, nothing than just empty space, but right behind the corner a bot dies trough david copperfields hand :D . The truth behind this is that the bots on Player 2s screen are already attacking but for player 1 they're still behind the corner.
The problem never appears for bosses or non moving targets like turrets BUT, and this is getting really funny sometimes, the turrets can aim for different players on each screen xD It's hilarious. Great example for this is Episode 3 - 3. The big black turrets. Player 1 says "heh, the cannon is shooting at you" and player 2 says "no, they're aiming for you". Player 1 can clearly see how the rocket hits player 2 but he takes no damage because on his screen the cannons tries to kill player 1. It's just awesome. In these situations, if both turrets on both screens aiming for different targets NO ONE takes damage but the cannon, of course, will.
And to be truth: that should never happen in a coop game.
Why I'm telling this: because the A.I. for campaign is not different from the A.I. in training mode (except for some uber-aiming and grenade spaming, lol). And now imagine what kind of a mess a room filled with more than 4 players and bots would be. The game would handle each bot for each player totally different when it comes to movement and certain actions like firing, grenading and more.
Sure, Capcom could simply add the bots for multiplayer. But this causes 100% problems in the current state of the game.
From what I Imagine or want AI to be in Multiplayer they would act much like a real player, so there is no handling each real player different and I am sure capcom would be able to implement it fine. And just one more thing to add to the uber aiming and gernade spamming, they actually move a great deal more than the campaign bots. So they simply would syncronize on the match rather than being different for each player.
I thank you for your feed back and am working on some more solutions to un-sycronization. (although the best solution would just be to not have it...)
On another note I have some Ideas regarding AI Persona's but I'll need a list of abilitys and what they do I am on vacation and can't just look them on LP2 let me see if some site has them....
PSN ID: Justin_Coplen
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I apologise if my wording of a previous post was inappropriate. As much as I would love to voice my opinions on the matter, it would not be contributory to the thread. There were certainly plenty of inappropriate words that came to mind while reading its response.
If I may clarify, its seems to me that most peoples concerns with having AI fill slot are simply faults with the AI themselves. Whilst I agree that the AI is far from perfect, I was simply pointing out that neither are we. No one wants people on the opposite team to be gifted with a super-soldier AI but at the same time nobody wants a useless AI on their own team that repeatedly runs out to get shot over and over again. We get players in real life that do both - but we don't mind it so much because it is a real person and their own level of personal skill compared to yours.
I think Capcom tried to simulate this by giving each AI in AI battle varying levels of simulated skill, as it seems to me that some of them are much harder to kill than others - and its usually the same bots towards the top of the leaderboards afterwards. Therefore I propose that the AI in AI fill slot should work in a similar way - randomly generated combinations of accuracy(between two predetermined values), aggressive and defensive play-styles and different weapons and abilities. Some could prioritise the use of VS's more than others.
This way, with a bit of tweaking they should be a more realistic replacement for a missing team-member and it would certainly seem more fair than a single default AI skill level. After all - different players have different skill levels too. With a single default setting for AI the same players would always be at either an advantage or disadvantage when facing them - this wouldn't be fun for those less skilled at the game as every time they play a game using the AI fill they would be at an immediate disadvantage. Using varying skill levels and behaviour patterns for the AI if implemented correctly should make the game just as fair as if they had a real player instead (in terms of skill and ability).
Just an idea, any thoughts?
sounds like you have played AI Battle and truly know what I am talking about, thank you. Yes, alot of people have issues with what will be known as AI Surfing. That is what we are trying to eliminate I posted some solutions about it, seems though as if only Daniel read and cared =( anyways, also your idea does sound very logical and correct (from what I know) mind if I just confirm what your saying is what I think:
So one AI's name is...xXnonox....or something like that anyways, he would have different skills than another AI such as DragonFire...or whatever it'a name is...also while Xxnonox might be defensive (guarding dataposts, guarding eggs, guarding Key points) DragonFire might be aggressive (seeking other players just to kill them, getting data posts, grabbing the egg and making goals) they would also have abilitys to match those persona's (that's the word I'm looking for right?) so Dragon Fire may have Fire power 1 and Quick return, xXnonox may have Special Guard II or whatever
Is that what your saying?
Yes, the different AI's would react differently each time like you said - some may favour hunting down the enemy and some would defend key points like data posts. Some could use cover more than others and avoid open areas wheras some may head straight to their target regardless. Some may prefer to stay with other team mates and follow them for support, whilst some may ignore team mates and run off solo. These characteristics would be completely at random. The abilities don't always have to match specifically as long as they are general ones - max ammo, firepower, defense, invisible, melee, quick return, recovery, max grenade type ones - those sorts. It would be useless to have a loadout with T-ENG weapons and max ammo, and the same the other way around with normal weapons and the T-ENG consumption ability - so these ones would only pop up if their randomly generated weapons loadout contained the right starting weapons. The anti-VS ability and VS master abilities could well be left just for VS annihilator matches unless they have a behavioural type which prioritises finding and using a VS.
They could even add different levels of shooting accuracy for the AI, obviously not too much either way - but enough to make the difference between a few bullets(just by adding/reducing slight sway to their guns when they shoot). Some could have a longer range perception by changing the distance in which they will notice and fire at an enemy.
This was technically Chris's Idea (unless it wasn't then he gave me an idea...)
AI's would be divided into Persona's that way there are no super soldier AI's, each AI would just have Strength and weaknesses. I have come up with some Persona's if you will in order to give each AI a different personality.
Offensive:
Main Goal
Data Post Battle- to grab all Enemy Controlled Data posts, once there are no Enemy Controlled Posts there job would be to grab all Vacant Posts.
Team Elimination- seek out enemy players and kill them and try to rack up as many kills as possible.
Elimination- Seek Out the player with the lowest KDR and focus on him, but to be aware of all other enemys and kill them also.
Counter Grab- To see out Enemy Players Far away from the post and kill them.
Fugitive (fugitive)- seek out all Hunters and Eliminate them pressing Trigger at fastest speed Humanly possible.
Fugitive (hunter)- seek out all fugitives and eliminate them
Akrid Egg Battle- Find Egg and make as many goals as quickley as Possible
VS Annihilator (both)- Seek out VS Leader and destroy leader as quickley as possible
Abilities
Fire Power I
Critical I
Weapons
MG II
Flame T.
Rifle SP
PC SP
V Device SP
Buster G
Spark G
Shuriken
Dummy III
Plasma III
Defensive:
Main Goal
Data Post Battle- Seek out mostly attacked Data Post and guard then will respawn there when dead, also when it's team's base data post is taken will retrieve that data post.
Team Elimination- Will Stay with it's teamate that has lowest KDR and provide Support
Elimination- Will pick a data post at random and Guard it
Counter Grab- Defend Data post and retrieve it if neccessary
Fugitive (fugitive)- will stay with other fugitive and provide support.
Fugitive (hunter)- Stick with teamate that has lowest KDR
Akrid egg Battle- Guard the Enemys Egg
VS Annihilator (non leader)- stick with VS Leader
VS Annihilator (leader)- stick with teamate that has lowest KDR main focus is non leader targets.
Abilities
Defense I
Quick Return
Weapons
MG SP
Shotgun
Rifle
RL II
Sheild
Incendinary
Chameleon (will be put on whatever it is guarding and will explode upon death or if someone gets close)
Disc III
Dummy II
Warp
Doctor:
Main Goal
Data Post Battle- First will find Injection Gun II then with Stick Newly Aquired Data Post, and will supply Teamtes who low on thermal with thermal, or use Injection Gun II or Regen to heal players low on Health
Team Elimination- First will find Injection Gun II then stick with player with highest KDR and will heal them when neccessary or supply them with thermal
Elimination- Will only focus on player with lowest KDR
Counter Grab- First will find Injection Gun II then stick with data post and will heal teamates when neccessary or give them thermal
Fugitive (fugitive)-stick with other fugitive and will supply other fugitive with health when low and thermal when low
Fugitive (hunter)-stick with player with Highest KDR then will heal them and supply them with thermal when low
Akrid Egg Battle-Stick with player who has egg and will heal them and supply them with thermal when needed
VS Annihilator (leader)- same as offensive
VS Annihilator (non leader)- will stick with leader and will repair leader when damaged even a little and supply them with thermal when low
Abilities
Recovery I
Head Start Plasma
Weapons
MG
Shotgun SP
Plasma SP
RL
Injection II
Normal II
Gum
Disc
Dummy
Regen
Tactical:
Main Goal
Data Post Battle- Focus on Vacant Data Posts then when none are Available Focus on Enemy Posts
Team Elimination- Focus on Enemy with lowest KDR
Elimination- Focus on enemy with Lowest KDR
Counter Grab- will grab post when neccesary and will then focus on enemy with highest KDR untill post is lowered then will go take it back
Fugitive (fugitive)- will hide farthest away from all players
Fugitive ( Hunter)- will focus on lowest rank fugitive
Akrid Egg Battle- will put portal by goal allowing easy access to goals.
VS Annihilator (leader)-will focus on mostly infantry
VS Annihilator (non Leader)- will grab VS and focus on leader
Abilities
Quick return
Invisible
Weapons
Energy Gun
Shotgun II
Plasma Gun II
PC
Injection Gun
Normal III
Gum II
Energy Disc
Ballon
Warp
Let me know If I forgot anything and if this is a good solution to how AI's would work. And also people plaease post some more persona's follow the above format, and what do you think?
PSN ID: Justin_Coplen
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I apologise if my wording of a previous post was inappropriate. As much as I would love to voice my opinions on the matter, it would not be contributory to the thread. There were certainly plenty of inappropriate words that came to mind while reading its response.
If I may clarify, its seems to me that most peoples concerns with having AI fill slot are simply faults with the AI themselves. Whilst I agree that the AI is far from perfect, I was simply pointing out that neither are we. No one wants people on the opposite team to be gifted with a super-soldier AI but at the same time nobody wants a useless AI on their own team that repeatedly runs out to get shot over and over again. We get players in real life that do both - but we don't mind it so much because it is a real person and their own level of personal skill compared to yours.
I think Capcom tried to simulate this by giving each AI in AI battle varying levels of simulated skill, as it seems to me that some of them are much harder to kill than others - and its usually the same bots towards the top of the leaderboards afterwards. Therefore I propose that the AI in AI fill slot should work in a similar way - randomly generated combinations of accuracy(between two predetermined values), aggressive and defensive play-styles and different weapons and abilities. Some could prioritise the use of VS's more than others.
This way, with a bit of tweaking they should be a more realistic replacement for a missing team-member and it would certainly seem more fair than a single default AI skill level. After all - different players have different skill levels too. With a single default setting for AI the same players would always be at either an advantage or disadvantage when facing them - this wouldn't be fun for those less skilled at the game as every time they play a game using the AI fill they would be at an immediate disadvantage. Using varying skill levels and behaviour patterns for the AI if implemented correctly should make the game just as fair as if they had a real player instead (in terms of skill and ability).
Just an idea, any thoughts?
sounds like you have played AI Battle and truly know what I am talking about, thank you. Yes, alot of people have issues with what will be known as AI Surfing. That is what we are trying to eliminate I posted some solutions about it, seems though as if only Daniel read and cared =( anyways, also your idea does sound very logical and correct (from what I know) mind if I just confirm what your saying is what I think:
So one AI's name is...xXnonox....or something like that anyways, he would have different skills than another AI such as DragonFire...or whatever it'a name is...also while Xxnonox might be defensive (guarding dataposts, guarding eggs, guarding Key points) DragonFire might be aggressive (seeking other players just to kill them, getting data posts, grabbing the egg and making goals) they would also have abilitys to match those persona's (that's the word I'm looking for right?) so Dragon Fire may have Fire power 1 and Quick return, xXnonox may have Special Guard II or whatever
Is that what your saying?
Yes, the different AI's would react differently each time like you said - some may favour hunting down the enemy and some would defend key points like data posts. Some could use cover more than others and avoid open areas wheras some may head straight to their target regardless. Some may prefer to stay with other team mates and follow them for support, whilst some may ignore team mates and run off solo. These characteristics would be completely at random. The abilities don't always have to match specifically as long as they are general ones - max ammo, firepower, defense, invisible, melee, quick return, recovery, max grenade type ones - those sorts. It would be useless to have a loadout with T-ENG weapons and max ammo, and the same the other way around with normal weapons and the T-ENG consumption ability - so these ones would only pop up if their randomly generated weapons loadout contained the right starting weapons. The anti-VS ability and VS master abilities could well be left just for VS annihilator matches unless they have a behavioural type which prioritises finding and using a VS.
They could even add different levels of shooting accuracy for the AI, obviously not too much either way - but enough to make the difference between a few bullets(just by adding/reducing slight sway to their guns when they shoot). Some could have a longer range perception by changing the distance in which they will notice and fire at an enemy.
Alright thank you I posted a sample above let me know what you think and plaease help me add more personas.
PSN ID: Justin_Coplen
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I have heard that counter Strike has AI Fill and that it works really well
also: what i have heard about counter strike is that the difficulty of the AI can be voted on if that something you guys would be interested in if we had AI Fill? If yes to voting on difficulty then these:
{-3 times the normal health of a real player
-the ability to know where vacant VS's are, and the ability to get inside them (health would be twice that of a player VS)
-twice the strength of a normal player.}
would be on the expert difficulty
PSN ID: Justin_Coplen
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I know that I could just have edited a previous post but I am also trying to bump this thread up.
So does anyone know of any games where AI Fill Was Implemented and what worked and what didn't so that we can perfect it in LP2?
PSN ID: Justin_Coplen
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I apologise if my wording of a previous post was inappropriate. As much as I would love to voice my opinions on the matter, it would not be contributory to the thread. There were certainly plenty of inappropriate words that came to mind while reading its response.
If I may clarify, its seems to me that most peoples concerns with having AI fill slot are simply faults with the AI themselves. Whilst I agree that the AI is far from perfect, I was simply pointing out that neither are we. No one wants people on the opposite team to be gifted with a super-soldier AI but at the same time nobody wants a useless AI on their own team that repeatedly runs out to get shot over and over again. We get players in real life that do both - but we don't mind it so much because it is a real person and their own level of personal skill compared to yours.
I think Capcom tried to simulate this by giving each AI in AI battle varying levels of simulated skill, as it seems to me that some of them are much harder to kill than others - and its usually the same bots towards the top of the leaderboards afterwards. Therefore I propose that the AI in AI fill slot should work in a similar way - randomly generated combinations of accuracy(between two predetermined values), aggressive and defensive play-styles and different weapons and abilities. Some could prioritise the use of VS's more than others.
This way, with a bit of tweaking they should be a more realistic replacement for a missing team-member and it would certainly seem more fair than a single default AI skill level. After all - different players have different skill levels too. With a single default setting for AI the same players would always be at either an advantage or disadvantage when facing them - this wouldn't be fun for those less skilled at the game as every time they play a game using the AI fill they would be at an immediate disadvantage. Using varying skill levels and behaviour patterns for the AI if implemented correctly should make the game just as fair as if they had a real player instead (in terms of skill and ability).
Just an idea, any thoughts?
sounds like you have played AI Battle and truly know what I am talking about, thank you. Yes, alot of people have issues with what will be known as AI Surfing. That is what we are trying to eliminate I posted some solutions about it, seems though as if only Daniel read and cared =( anyways, also your idea does sound very logical and correct (from what I know) mind if I just confirm what your saying is what I think:
So one AI's name is...xXnonox....or something like that anyways, he would have different skills than another AI such as DragonFire...or whatever it'a name is...also while Xxnonox might be 1. defensive (guarding dataposts, guarding eggs, guarding Key points) 2. DragonFire might be aggressive (seeking other players just to kill them, getting data posts, grabbing the egg and making goals) 3. they would also have abilitys to match those persona's (that's the word I'm looking for right?) 4. so Dragon Fire may have Fire power 1 and Quick return, 5. xXnonox may have Special Guard II or whatever
Is that what your saying?
1. Hm. Yea, nice.
2. One with an offensive job too? Sounds good. Offensive primary and Defense primary may have some players thinking more on how to handle a situation.
3. ...aye, good..
4. WTH! 3x more health than normal, AND deals 2x more damage than players, AND deal an additional 1.2 damage? Shall I drop dead before meeting him or run?
5. 3x more health, immune to ALL immobilization AND x2 more damage? You sure he's the defense guy?
Try not to take my criticism as an insult. I'm being more of the... "mean guy you learn satisfying values from."
-
"Alright I have came up with a couple solutions to harder AI's let me know if these are any good.
-3 times the normal health of a real player
-the ability to know where vacant VS's are, and the ability to get inside them (health would be twice that of a player VS)
-twice the strength of a normal player.
Let me know if these idea would be helpful or a bust, again thank you for the feed back, and let me know if you guys want a summed up essay. "
I apologise if my wording of a previous post was inappropriate. As much as I would love to voice my opinions on the matter, it would not be contributory to the thread. There were certainly plenty of inappropriate words that came to mind while reading its response.
If I may clarify, its seems to me that most peoples concerns with having AI fill slot are simply faults with the AI themselves. Whilst I agree that the AI is far from perfect, I was simply pointing out that neither are we. No one wants people on the opposite team to be gifted with a super-soldier AI but at the same time nobody wants a useless AI on their own team that repeatedly runs out to get shot over and over again. We get players in real life that do both - but we don't mind it so much because it is a real person and their own level of personal skill compared to yours.
I think Capcom tried to simulate this by giving each AI in AI battle varying levels of simulated skill, as it seems to me that some of them are much harder to kill than others - and its usually the same bots towards the top of the leaderboards afterwards. Therefore I propose that the AI in AI fill slot should work in a similar way - randomly generated combinations of accuracy(between two predetermined values), aggressive and defensive play-styles and different weapons and abilities. Some could prioritise the use of VS's more than others.
This way, with a bit of tweaking they should be a more realistic replacement for a missing team-member and it would certainly seem more fair than a single default AI skill level. After all - different players have different skill levels too. With a single default setting for AI the same players would always be at either an advantage or disadvantage when facing them - this wouldn't be fun for those less skilled at the game as every time they play a game using the AI fill they would be at an immediate disadvantage. Using varying skill levels and behaviour patterns for the AI if implemented correctly should make the game just as fair as if they had a real player instead (in terms of skill and ability).
Just an idea, any thoughts?
sounds like you have played AI Battle and truly know what I am talking about, thank you. Yes, alot of people have issues with what will be known as AI Surfing. That is what we are trying to eliminate I posted some solutions about it, seems though as if only Daniel read and cared =( anyways, also your idea does sound very logical and correct (from what I know) mind if I just confirm what your saying is what I think:
So one AI's name is...xXnonox....or something like that anyways, he would have different skills than another AI such as DragonFire...or whatever it'a name is...also while Xxnonox might be 1. defensive (guarding dataposts, guarding eggs, guarding Key points) 2. DragonFire might be aggressive (seeking other players just to kill them, getting data posts, grabbing the egg and making goals) 3. they would also have abilitys to match those persona's (that's the word I'm looking for right?) 4. so Dragon Fire may have Fire power 1 and Quick return, 5. xXnonox may have Special Guard II or whatever
Is that what your saying?
1. Hm. Yea, nice.
2. One with an offensive job too? Sounds good. Offensive primary and Defense primary may have some players thinking more on how to handle a situation.
3. ...aye, good..
4. WTH! 3x more health than normal, AND deals 2x more damage than players, AND deal an additional 1.2 damage? Shall I drop dead before meeting him or run?
5. 3x more health, immune to ALL immobilization AND x2 more damage? You sure he's the defense guy?
Try not to take my criticism as an insult. I'm being more of the... "mean guy you learn satisfying values from."
-
"Alright I have came up with a couple solutions to harder AI's let me know if these are any good.
-3 times the normal health of a real player
-the ability to know where vacant VS's are, and the ability to get inside them (health would be twice that of a player VS)
-twice the strength of a normal player.
Let me know if these idea would be helpful or a bust, again thank you for the feed back, and let me know if you guys want a summed up essay. "
5. Refer to my Sample Personas that was just a quick sorta deal and also if your refrencing towards my earlier solution (3x ealth etc) would only be if everyone votes on putting the AI's on expert
This post wasn't mean at all don't worry, I thank you for your feed back and hope on improving AI Fill Slot
PSN ID: Justin_Coplen
-Support AI Fill Slots
-Have a Technical, Gaming, Graphic Design, or General Question? Vist My page and use the Meebo Questions Chat Box to have them be answered Instantly!
-Want an Epic Signature? Maybe of your Favorite Character? Contact me, via PM, and I'll make one for you! (remember to leave me a link to your page so I will be able to contact you)
